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QNX 6.6 release

Discussion about the QNX6 OS.

Re: QNX 6.6 release

Postby Thunderblade » Tue Mar 04, 2014 9:53 am

jinma wrote:Just installed the development tools on windows and vmware image of 6.6.0 on x86 and I must say that I am pretty disappointed that QNX just booted to a terminal screen. I was hoping QNX would have replaced Photon with at least some QT version of UI...

Same here. Big disappointment. I can only guess the reasoning behind this. Qt is not a QNX product, and for those who want Crank or HTML5 it's useless overhead. But still... I think the right thing to do would have been to come up with a homescreen, just like on BB10, IMHO. That would have been nice.

maschoen wrote:One irony I've run into is that there doesn't seem to be any straight forward way to create a QNX target file system from Momentics.

I'm very annoyed by this aswell. Basically it's a lot of manual work. The advantage is that you 100%ly know what's in your filesystem. But I never understood why Momentics lacked such tooling.
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Re: QNX 6.6 release

Postby mario » Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:12 pm

Thunderblade wrote:
mario wrote:Will QNX reemburse the cost of the forced migration ?

QNX has supported Photon for... how long? 15 years? 20 years? Come on, give those guys a break.


Lots of think I`m not talking about so I am giving them a break ;-) Should here their reponse when I asked them how about Phindows like capability...

That being said I`m sure QNX is well aware of the effect this will have on customer and it`s a consious and deliberated choice. One might just skip 6.6 and wait for 6.7 but at 3 years between releases that's a long time to wait for thinks like updated compiler and such. Plus given the expensive support plan to get the access to updated that 6.7 ( 6years of paying for support plan) is going to be mighty expensive.
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Re: QNX 6.6 release

Postby jinma » Tue Mar 04, 2014 7:32 pm

I was out of openqnx for a while and missed your postings. I will read back to catch up now, but I agree with you about lack of coherency with QNX development tool at this point :(
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Re: QNX 6.6 release

Postby jinma » Tue Mar 04, 2014 7:39 pm

I agree with you 100% Mario. QT use to support VNC server but that was back in 4.x days and now I don't even know what kind of remote login tools QT5 has if not any. Being able to remote login and control from a GUI side is a huge tool to have for support and troubleshooting. I will not go backward with ssh or telnet at best.
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Re: QNX 6.6 release

Postby maschoen » Wed Mar 05, 2014 6:02 am

A small note from the trenches. The VM version comes without QED. Maybe I'm the last person using it. Well me and Dan, anyway. But I quickly found that the QNX 6.5 version works quite well.

It does not have a compiler, no surprise here. I poked around with trying to run gf and Photon on it. I only ran into a problem late in the game having to do with the font manager. I'll try again some more later in the week.

Mitchell
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Re: QNX 6.6 release

Postby Thunderblade » Wed Mar 05, 2014 4:12 pm

mario wrote:That being said I`m sure QNX is well aware of the effect this will have on customer and it`s a consious and deliberated choice.

It is, absolutely. I had long discussions with some stakeholders. There are two main reasons why QNX does not want to invest in Photon and corresponding graphics drivers any more:

1) almost none of QNX' customers in the Automotive space is using Photon. But Automotive is one of the really important market segments for QNX

2) QNX isn't in a position to compete with Photon against solutions like Qt. Qt is a "standard" while Photon is totally proprietary. One could argue that their microkernel is proprietary, too, but the API is POSIX so it's a completely different thing.
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Re: QNX 6.6 release

Postby Thunderblade » Wed Mar 05, 2014 4:21 pm

jinma wrote:QT use to support VNC server but that was back in 4.x days and now I don't even know what kind of remote login tools QT5 has if not any. Being able to remote login and control from a GUI side is a huge tool to have for support and troubleshooting. I will not go backward with ssh or telnet at best.

Lack of Phindows capability bothered me aswell, however what I heard from QNX made sense to me. The recommendation was to refrain from trying to transfer draw streams or framebuffers like in the old days. With extremely big resolutions (no more 800x600, but more like 4k is coming soonish...), trying to transfer the whole GUI via the network just makes no sense.

The recommendation is to create an HTML5 HMI instead, that communicates e.g. via sockets with the main, headless application process(es). An HTML5 user interface can run natively on QNX 6.6, and can be run remotely using ANY device, like PC, Tablet, Phone. Something I always hated about Phindows was that it wasn't available for my WiFi-enabled PDA (back in the days...) and that it wasn't available for my Smartphone. HTML5 is available everywhere.

Yes, it means: Re-do the HMI, if you need remote access. Qt is not the way here. But to be honest, I am glad about it because it enforces change. Staying in the past and claiming "back then everything was better" is a very bad sign of getting old - and disconnected.
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Re: QNX 6.6 release

Postby jinma » Wed Mar 05, 2014 5:47 pm

I agree that change is good and as an engineer I always welcome the new challenge and technology but I don't think the upper managers feel the same about yet another big investment on technology when the current one is working just fine. I'm am working on industrial equipments that still run ISA boards and serial communication although we have moved to USB and ethernet, changes are much slower here than compare to consumer market.
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Re: QNX 6.6 release

Postby ianc » Wed Mar 05, 2014 11:51 pm

" Staying in the past and claiming "back then everything was better" is a very bad sign of getting old - and disconnected."

Maybe. But some things were definitely *better*. Anyone remember ditto?
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Re: QNX 6.6 release

Postby mario » Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:21 am

Thunderblade wrote:
jinma wrote:QT use to support VNC server but that was back in 4.x days and now I don't even know what kind of remote login tools QT5 has if not any. Being able to remote login and control from a GUI side is a huge tool to have for support and troubleshooting. I will not go backward with ssh or telnet at best.

Lack of Phindows capability bothered me aswell, however what I heard from QNX made sense to me. The recommendation was to refrain from trying to transfer draw streams or framebuffers like in the old days. With extremely big resolutions (no more 800x600, but more like 4k is coming soonish...), trying to transfer the whole GUI via the network just makes no sense.


Heu ? You mean vnc, remote desktop, teamviewer to name a few, those make no sense ?

So far photon works fine in 6.6, our design requires phindows without it we are f*d. We don't even start a graphic driver, everything is virtual. Replacing this with html which we have started to do is a 1 year job...

Being a real-time guy, all this html stuff although interesting gives me the creep, talk about major overhead.

I totaly agree that Photon is somewhat of a dead-end but some sort of migration or porting kit should have been provided. I was told is was to much work and viable business wise, they thus decided to transfer the cost to their customers. Maybe a 3rd party with less overhead then QNX costwise or available resources is gonna jump on this. But given there is no window manager or anything alike it's a LOT more then a porting kit...
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Re: QNX 6.6 release

Postby Thunderblade » Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:58 am

mario wrote:our design requires phindows without it we are f*d

But if you started from scratch today, wouldn't HTML5 or Qt be the best solution? Yes I hate VNC, Citrix and the like. :) Today's HMI's are full of animations, and while I think they are useless, they are slowing down things when working remotely. The best approach in my humble opinion is Qt, with a clean separation of HMI and rest of (real time) application, with Qt front end being deployed natively under Windows, Linux, Mac, Android, etc. and run locally on QNX just fine.
mario wrote:Replacing this with html which we have started to do is a 1 year job...

Sooner or later you would have had to replace it anyway, so it's good that you have started. Your customers
a) won't accept the old fashioned Photon user interface, will expect modern look
b) will ask for access from mobile devices like smart phones, tablets...
c) may not be ready to install software to access your system (that would be an argument against Qt and for HTML)

Just my 2 cents.

Being a real-time guy, all this html stuff although interesting gives me the creep, talk about major overhead.

Isn't the overhead not very relevant as you can do it on a very low priority? And in your case, if you don't even have a local display, with HTML5 you would be off-loading the HMI rendering to the remote end.
I totaly agree that Photon is somewhat of a dead-end but some sort of migration or porting kit should have been provided.

QNX has worked with KDAB to provide a Photon to Qt migration framework. That's more than QNX had to do, as their big Auto customers don't care about Photon anyway.
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Re: QNX 6.6 release

Postby Thunderblade » Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:32 am

Thunderblade wrote:That's more than QNX had to do, as their big Auto customers don't care about Photon anyway.

One important thing to add here, though. QNX had to heavily invest into Automotive to become big there. Usually it takes several years after such an invest pays off. In the meantime, how did QNX stay alive, where did they get their money from? Of course from those old trusty Industrial Automation customers using Photon and Phindows.
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Re: QNX 6.6 release

Postby denkelly » Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:04 pm

>>>there doesn't seem to be any straight forward way to create a QNX target file system from Momentics.
Checkout the new 6.6 commandline utilitity - mkqnx6fsimg
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Re: QNX 6.6 release

Postby jacus » Tue Mar 11, 2014 2:00 pm

Does QNX 6.6.0 contine to support multiscreen applications (on multicards hardware) ? Like it was implemented on QNX 6.5.1 Photon GUI (shifted X,Y regions).
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Re: QNX 6.6 release

Postby maschoen » Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:40 pm

denkelly wrote:>>>there doesn't seem to be any straight forward way to create a QNX target file system from Momentics.
Checkout the new 6.6 commandline utilitity - mkqnx6fsimg


Thanks Dennis,

I've been asking about this problem for over 3 weeks and you are the first person to mention this utility.

Mitchell
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